Is Mountain Accord’s Plan for a Train Built for A Different Kind of People?
Sometimes you want something so badly that you ignore reality in order to fool yourself into thinking that it will work.
We’ve learned more about trains in the last few weeks than we ever thought we would (and 6 of my uncles used to drive/ride trains for Union Pacific).
- We’ve learned that it likely won’t be high speed rail, like Trax, going up Little Cottonwood.
- We’ve learned that Cog Rack and Pinion rail will likely be necessary to go up a steep hill like the Cottonwoods.
- We’ve learned that a Cog Rack train travels between 6 and 16 mph. Pikes Peak’s Cog Rack train averages 9 MPH.
- We’ve learned that Brighton is almost 1900 feet above PCMR.
- We’ve learned that a train won’t likely be able to come down the grade between Brighton and PCMR in a straight shot. It will have to switch back and forth.
- We’ve learned that it will likely take about 2 hours to go between the base of Little Cottonwood and PCMR via the train.
Yeah, we guarantee we knew nothing of that in January. Yet, a conversation we had this weekend With a Friend of the Rag, causes us to ask even more questions.
He asked, “How does snow get removed from the tracks? They must have it figured out because they do it in Europe.” That’s another question we knew nothing about, so we researched it. It appears that a “plow engine” clears the track for Cog Rack trains. Here is Engine No 22 at Pikes Peak.
According to Cograilway.com, this engine allows Pike Peak operations to open the mountain after most storms. Of course, they are closed five days a week in the winter.
So, we imagine something similar to this “500 horse-power, 12-cylinder Cummins diesel engine” will be used as part of the Mountain Accord. Our question is, how long will this actually take to plow the track up the Cottonwoods in the Winter? After Avalanche Control and track plowing, will the road open at 11AM on a good snow day? Will the road open before the railway? Will the plow slow travel during the day, if there is significant snow?
The reason we ask is that we’ve heard it can take 2-3 hours to get up some of the slopes in Switzerland via rail. Now we see why. More importantly, would that timing work here?
We’ve travelled Europe and there seem to be an innate patience there, not often duplicated here. Vacations are long and tolerance can be high. People in Switzerland may be willing to get to the mountain a few hours later than your average Utahn… Do fresh tracks exist at Alta at 10 AM?
We wonder if Mountain Accord’s hopes and dreams may be stronger than their logic. The current plans seem to fly in the face of the old “Quickstart” program where you could ski for free on the same day you flew into the SLC airport. In this case, you fly in today and ski a half day tomorrow.
It just doesn’t seem to make a lot of sense. As they say, “Hope is not a strategy.”
Vail Announces Earnings Results This Thursday
Since we are all now technically invested in the success or failure of Vail (whether you planned on or not, when you moved here 15 years ago), you may want to hear about how they are doing.
Vail is hosting an earnings call (aka an investment call) on Thursday at 9:30 AM MT to fill everyone in and answer questions from people with as much money as Mitt Romney.
If you want to listen in, the information provided by Vail is below:
The call will be broadcast over the Internet at www.vailresorts.com. To listen to the call, go to the website and select the Investor Relations section. Those wishing to participate via telephone should dial (877) 718-5108 to be connected. Callers outside ofNorth America should dial (719) 325-4841.
Mountain Accord Debate Live Online This Wednesday @ 5PM
Want to learn more about Mountain Accord but you haven’t been able to make the meetings? This Wednesday, four key parties will he having a discussion online about the Accord. It’s billed as a debate, so we hope some hard questions are asked and answered during the meeting.
The participants include:
Laynee Jones, Mountain Accord
Carl Fisher, Save Our Canyons
Paul Marshall, SkiUtah
Peter Metcalf, Black Diamond Equipment andOutdoor Industry Association
You can also post your questions ahead of time using Twitter (#MountainAccord) or at the bottom of the Meeting Page.
If you have a computer, it truly has never been easier to learn more about Mountain Accord and get your questions answered.
The meeting starts Wednesday, March 11th at 5pm MST. To watch it live on Wednesday click here and then you’ll see a Youtube video window with some trees in it. Press the play button and you’ll be good to go.
Thanks to @mountainmeister for letting us know about this meeting.
Representative Kraig Powell Would Like Your Input on Mountain Accord
On Friday we had written about Utah Representative Kraig Powell’s response to a question on Mountain Accord from KPCW’s Leslie Thatcher . We had written that we felt Representative Powell should take into account his constituents’ opinions when deciding to vote for or against appropriating more money for Mountain Accord.
Representative Powell was kind enough to respond to our story. It genuinely seems that he would like to hear from you. So if you support the Accord or are opposed to it, please let Representative Powell know how you feel and why. His reply to our story and email are below.
This is Kraig Powell. I am very happy to continue this discussion.
I have been in touch with both Park City and Summit County officials on Mountain Accord. I understand that Summit County residents are rightly concerned about the plans that may emerge from MA. I will certainly express to other legislators the concerns that I am hearing from Summit County residents. It’s just that at this time it does not seem wise to me for us to ignore or pull back from the process, if the many other parties are going to forge ahead.
There will always be concrete steps available to fight and oppose any attempted actions that emerge from MA, at the right time and by the applicable government entities. But the study, collaboration and dialogue that are occurring now on MA is something that I don’t believe should be squelched.
I may be wrong, and so I invite those who disagree to share with me your views and arguments at .
PCMR is 1850 Feet Below Brighton… How Does That Impact the Mountain Accord’s Plan for Trains?
One thousand eight hundred fifty feet is over a third of a mile. It’s also the elevation difference between Brighton and the base of PCMR. After writing our last article about the time a cog rack train would take to get up Little Cottonwood Canyon, a concerned citizen enlightened us on a factor we had not included in our calculation. He felt our estimate of 15-20 minutes between Brighton and PCMR on the Mountain Accord train was way too conservative.
Using a maximum gradient of 5% for a Cog Rack train, he calculated that the path a train would have to take to get to PCMR from Brighton would be almost 8 miles. Given that a cog rack train would likely go about 10 miles an hour… that’s a 50 minute trip. So, if you are boarding a train at the entrance to Little Cottonwood Canyon, you are looking at almost a two hour trip to PCMR via rail.
So, who is going to do that?
h/t to A Good Friend of the Park Rag for pointing this out
Is Summit County Representative Kraig Powell Out of Touch on Mountain Accord?
This morning on KPCW, Utah Representative Kraig Powell was interviewed by Leslie Thatcher on a number of topics. However, what caught our attention was a response near the end of the interview about Mountain Accord.
Leslie Thatcher: Apparently there is a bill or it is part of the appropriations bill that would fund Mountain Accord up to $5 million. Is that something you are in support of?
Representative Powell: I’m sorry that I’ve been in the legislative session and it’s take a real turn recently and I’ve been reading the Park Record and listening to your program. It is very unusual for any group in society that are working on something that would say we don’t want funding from legislature. That’s the thing that puzzles me about this. If my constituents on the Wasatch Back actually want me to vote against a funding bill that’s providing funding, it would be the first time in my legislative career. But I need to hear that directly from the leaders of the municipalities and counties. They haven’t been calling me directly. Although I have had some citizens write to me saying that.
This concerns us on a number of fronts:
- To Park City and Summit County residents, this isn’t just some funding bill. Mr Powell acts like this is some bill to fund a swimming pool. To us, Mountain Accord could fundamentally alter who and how PCMR, Canyons, and Deer Valley are used.
- While we understand that the legislature session is important, almost 400 people showed up to a meeting at Park City High School regarding Mountain Accord. So, it’s a big deal to us. His response above shows a complete lack of understanding of the public’s view of importance on this issue.
- This perhaps confirms County Council person Dave Ure’s comment that probably not more than a handful of people on the hill know what is being spent on Mountain Accord. It appears Mr Powell is not in that handful.
- Mr Powell says he needs to hear directly from “leaders of municipalities and counties” in order to know whether he should vote against appropriations for Mountain Accord. We didn’t realize that the Park City City Council had elected him. That’s good to know. We guess we won’t have to waste all that time voting next time.
We do realize this is one interview and one sound byte out of a thousand. We also don’t follow the legislature much, so we don’t know if Mr Powell’s attitude is typical. What we do know is that from a casual citizens point of view his comments were very disappointing.
We Hope You Love Billboards
While this doesn’t immediately impact Park City (yet), this Salt Lake Tribune article about Utah Representative Mike Noel changing a Scenic Byway law is interesting. Effectively right now, billboards can’t be placed along scenic byways if the local government opposes it. This change would prevent local governments from controlling that. Therefore, land owners could put billboards where they like.
Scenic byways are official areas designated like Little Cottonwood Canyon, Scenic Highway 12, etc.
If this were implemented at a State Highway level, just imagine how pretty 224 would look!
h/t to a concerned citizen who forwarded us the SL Trib article
in Skiing
Fake Snow, Real Money: The High-Tech Fight to Save California Skiing
Among the interesting facts presented:
- In Sochi, for the 2014 Winter Olympics they used Finnish snow making equipment that let them make “snow” up to 62º F.
- In ideal conditions, snowmakers can fabricate winter at the rate of a foot of snow over 43 acres in just 12 hours at Heavenly.
- Among the 19 cities that have hosted the winter Olympics—including Calgary, Chamonix, Nagano, and Oslo—the average February temperature is up to 46 degrees, up from 32 in the 1920s.
- Within a decade, 300 of the 470 U.S. ski resorts could be gone.
That last point is interesting. If the number of ski resorts dwindles, the survivors probably prosper — and it’s usually the big guys who survive. Hello Vail.
Looks like it’s time to double down on that 3rd home you’ve been looking at in The Colony.
in Schools
Park City School Superintendent Taking Over Grade Realignment Decision
For the past few months, the Park City School District Master Planning Committee has been discussing the issue of realigning which grades are in what buildings. In yesterday’s Park City School District Master Planning Committee meeting, school superintendent Ember Conley announced that she had decided that the realignment was really an “academic” issue and she personally felt realigning grades was right for our students. Therefore, the issue of whether to realign will no longer be a Master Planning issue and will fall to her.
Ms. Conley plans on holding meetings with community members on April 2nd and April 3rd to answer questions and get public input. Her decision will likely follow shortly thereafter. Currently the thinking appears to be that Pre-K to 4th grade will be at the existing elementary schools, 5th and 6th grade will be at a new school (to be built), 7th and 8th will be at Ecker Hill, and 9th through 12th will be at the high school.
Once Ms Conley receives public feedback and officially charts a course, the task of making sure facilities are available will fall to the Master Planning Committee.
There is a palpable sense that there isn’t a lot of time to do accomplish everything officials are aiming for. This is an example where an expeditious path is being taken. In this case, it probably makes sense that this decision falls to the head of our school district, as it really is a decision that should be based on what impacts our students’ achievement and not what buildings are available.
in Trains
Your Vision of Riding Rail up Little Cottonwood Canyon is Likely Different From Reality
We were driving up Little Cottonwood Canyon to Snowbird and we had forgotten just how steep that climb can be. This reminded us of a comment that Summit County Council member Roger Armstrong made during a meeting, upon his return from a Mountain Accord trip to Switzerland. He had commented that the pitch in the Cottonwood Canyon was likely too steep for light rail. Therefore COG Rack trains would be needed.
We didn’t understand the significance of that comment until we were speaking with a neighbor. He confirmed that COG Rack trains were probably the only thing that would work due to the grade. He also asked the question whether we knew how slow they were?
So we decided to Find out. It appears that the maximum speed of a COG Rack train is 15 miles per hour, or they run the risk of “dislodging from the rack.” The COG Rack train servicing Pikes Peak goes 9 MPH. While we would guess the Pikes Peak Route is steeper, we can’t imagine the train going much faster than 10 MPH. That would be about a 2/3 slower than we drove the canyon today. That also means a ride from the bottom of the canyon to Brighton would take an hour, without any stops. Likewise going all the way to pcmr would tack on at least another 15 to 20 minutes, making that a long, slow ride
We were also wondering how their avalanche control would fit into a world with a train. Many times the canyon is closed because they have to move the snow off the road, after they’ve done control work. How does that work getting snow off the Rack Rail?
While there are likely benefits to a train up the canyon and many times cars aren’t going fast up the canyon, reality probably isn’t quite what we pictured. We envisioned the light rail train, flying up the mountain… much like we see it going out to the airport.
If built, this railway will likely be much different than that.
Parkrag
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